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	<title>Comments on: Fisking Fisk</title>
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	<link>http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/</link>
	<description>I Might Be Wrong</description>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1279</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 07:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1279</guid>
		<description>I had found Fisk&#039;s article late while researching counter arguments against 9/11 conspiracies, on Oct 16, but sent him an airmail letter complaining (I had met him before and mentioned it, plus he knows a semi-famous guy I&#039;m working with, so I thought he might read it.)
On Oct 30 at 8:30am US Mountain time the phone rings, it&#039;s Robert Fisk, calling from Beirut, thanking me for my letter and for the disk with the superb rebuttal by Ryan Mackey of David Ray Griffin &quot;Debunking...&quot; book.
He said he mostly agreed with my criticism but that the cover-up of the grave mistakes in the run up and later the handling of the crisis, the reluctant investigation, and the sheer scale of the thing led people to suspect there was more, then making it up as they went along. Fisk mostly explained it as an artifact of the internet which gives (dubious) resources but not actual research skills to amateurs. He compared it to the Lockerbie trials which, he said, was also a botched investigation leaving many questions that sprouted similar conspiracy theories.
I was stunned that my simple letter had had such an impact.
(He even asked someone from Amnesty headquarters from London who called on the other line to hold while we were chatting...)
Why am I telling this story? Perhaps because I haven&#039;t felt that important in months :) Actually: because it showed me that journalists, even the best, depend on people filling them in on things. So if you have a case to make, do so. If you really want to influence someone, use your clearest language, and better yet, funnel it through someone whom the target knows and trusts. I often write two versions or split a letter to the editor in two: one part the brief polite one for publication, the other explicitely not for publication but as illustration or to provide evidence for my claims for the editor&#039;s eyes only.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had found Fisk&#8217;s article late while researching counter arguments against 9/11 conspiracies, on Oct 16, but sent him an airmail letter complaining (I had met him before and mentioned it, plus he knows a semi-famous guy I&#8217;m working with, so I thought he might read it.)<br />
On Oct 30 at 8:30am US Mountain time the phone rings, it&#8217;s Robert Fisk, calling from Beirut, thanking me for my letter and for the disk with the superb rebuttal by Ryan Mackey of David Ray Griffin &#8220;Debunking&#8230;&#8221; book.<br />
He said he mostly agreed with my criticism but that the cover-up of the grave mistakes in the run up and later the handling of the crisis, the reluctant investigation, and the sheer scale of the thing led people to suspect there was more, then making it up as they went along. Fisk mostly explained it as an artifact of the internet which gives (dubious) resources but not actual research skills to amateurs. He compared it to the Lockerbie trials which, he said, was also a botched investigation leaving many questions that sprouted similar conspiracy theories.<br />
I was stunned that my simple letter had had such an impact.<br />
(He even asked someone from Amnesty headquarters from London who called on the other line to hold while we were chatting&#8230;)<br />
Why am I telling this story? Perhaps because I haven&#8217;t felt that important in months :) Actually: because it showed me that journalists, even the best, depend on people filling them in on things. So if you have a case to make, do so. If you really want to influence someone, use your clearest language, and better yet, funnel it through someone whom the target knows and trusts. I often write two versions or split a letter to the editor in two: one part the brief polite one for publication, the other explicitely not for publication but as illustration or to provide evidence for my claims for the editor&#8217;s eyes only.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1262</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1262</guid>
		<description>Jeremy,

Thanks for the tip. Indeed, “prepending” might have been more specific and perhaps stylistically preferable: I could have rendered the words “the start of” redundant. Marginally in my defence, however, as far as I can tell, “appending” is a fairly generic term and does not seem to imply that the appendage in question is being affixed to any specific location.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy,</p>
<p>Thanks for the tip. Indeed, “prepending” might have been more specific and perhaps stylistically preferable: I could have rendered the words “the start of” redundant. Marginally in my defence, however, as far as I can tell, “appending” is a fairly generic term and does not seem to imply that the appendage in question is being affixed to any specific location.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1261</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1261</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not a Nazi, but...

&lt;blockquote&gt;
It’s perhaps something of a clichéd observation, but whenever someone clears their throat by appending “I’m not a racist, but…” to the start of their sentence, you can be all but sure that a racist remark of some kind or another will follow.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It&#039;s actually, not &lt;em&gt;appending&lt;/em&gt;, but &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;pre&lt;/strong&gt;pending&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not a Nazi, but&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>
It’s perhaps something of a clichéd observation, but whenever someone clears their throat by appending “I’m not a racist, but…” to the start of their sentence, you can be all but sure that a racist remark of some kind or another will follow.
</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s actually, not <em>appending</em>, but <em><strong>pre</strong>pending</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1260</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2007 13:39:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1260</guid>
		<description>Janama,

I have to wonder whether you actually read my piece before commenting on it. Not once did I as much as mention Popular Mechanics, let alone simply appeal to their authority.  (I should point out though, that Richard Gage and his equally fraudulent group of acolytes don’t even appear to know how NIST conclude that the towers collapsed, so it’s rather difficult to take them seriously. Further, amongst the overpriced merchandise for sale on Gage’s website, are &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ae911truth.org/cardsorder.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;these “evidence cards”&lt;/a&gt; (a snip at only $1 each). On them, you’ll find some of the same tired old falsehoods that Fisk dredged up for his article. They seem to be the conspiracy theorists’ version of Pokémon. In other words, a fantasy-based money-spinner.)

Given that &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this 2004 CBS poll&lt;/a&gt; shows that 55% of Americans believe in literal biblical creationism, the figure you cite, even if it were an accurate representation, shouldn’t cause me to think that my beliefs concerning the events of 9/11 are necessarily in error. People believe weird things – and in great numbers, too.

I am not “guessing” about what occurred on 9/11. I am making an assessment based on the available evidence. That is a demonstrably better approach than the ones taken by the vast majority of conspiracy theorists, and there’s nothing all that “arrogant” about saying so. Nevertheless, instead of &lt;em&gt;argumentum ad populum&lt;/em&gt; and accusations of superciliousness, perhaps you should tell me what, if anything, I get wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Janama,</p>
<p>I have to wonder whether you actually read my piece before commenting on it. Not once did I as much as mention Popular Mechanics, let alone simply appeal to their authority.  (I should point out though, that Richard Gage and his equally fraudulent group of acolytes don’t even appear to know how NIST conclude that the towers collapsed, so it’s rather difficult to take them seriously. Further, amongst the overpriced merchandise for sale on Gage’s website, are <a href="http://www.ae911truth.org/cardsorder.php" rel="nofollow">these “evidence cards”</a> (a snip at only $1 each). On them, you’ll find some of the same tired old falsehoods that Fisk dredged up for his article. They seem to be the conspiracy theorists’ version of Pokémon. In other words, a fantasy-based money-spinner.)</p>
<p>Given that <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml" rel="nofollow">this 2004 CBS poll</a> shows that 55% of Americans believe in literal biblical creationism, the figure you cite, even if it were an accurate representation, shouldn’t cause me to think that my beliefs concerning the events of 9/11 are necessarily in error. People believe weird things – and in great numbers, too.</p>
<p>I am not “guessing” about what occurred on 9/11. I am making an assessment based on the available evidence. That is a demonstrably better approach than the ones taken by the vast majority of conspiracy theorists, and there’s nothing all that “arrogant” about saying so. Nevertheless, instead of <em>argumentum ad populum</em> and accusations of superciliousness, perhaps you should tell me what, if anything, I get wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: janama</title>
		<link>http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1259</link>
		<dc:creator>janama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2007 06:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1259</guid>
		<description>either way this subject needs to be discussed, just calling Popular Mechanics doesn&#039;t carry any weight anymore as there are plenty of sites refuting their findings, like this one.
http://www.911blogger.com/node/10025
Currently 65% of voters at MSNBC question the Government&#039;s explanation of 9/11 events.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14727720

as you say at the top of the page &quot;I Might Be Wrong&quot; In this case you may be. We are all guessing but somehow you seem to think you are guessing better than anyone else. That&#039;s arrogance in my book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>either way this subject needs to be discussed, just calling Popular Mechanics doesn&#8217;t carry any weight anymore as there are plenty of sites refuting their findings, like this one.<br />
<a href="http://www.911blogger.com/node/10025" rel="nofollow">http://www.911blogger.com/node/10025</a><br />
Currently 65% of voters at MSNBC question the Government&#8217;s explanation of 9/11 events.<br />
<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14727720" rel="nofollow">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14727720</a></p>
<p>as you say at the top of the page &#8220;I Might Be Wrong&#8221; In this case you may be. We are all guessing but somehow you seem to think you are guessing better than anyone else. That&#8217;s arrogance in my book.</p>
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		<title>By: The Vol Abroad</title>
		<link>http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1253</link>
		<dc:creator>The Vol Abroad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1253</guid>
		<description>Excellent post.  And while I don&#039;t agree with a previous poster that the Independent publishing this packet of half-truths (at best) contributes to an open and honest debate about 9/11 conspiracies - I think we do need to have some discussion about it.  Too many in the &#039;Arab street&#039; believe exactly what Fisk has described - and worse (specifically the lies that Jews received a warning from Mossad - the real culprit - and none died).  

Avoiding a rehearsal of conspiracy theories, the discussion needs to be about understanding each others&#039; sense of grievances and accepting facts as they are available.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post.  And while I don&#8217;t agree with a previous poster that the Independent publishing this packet of half-truths (at best) contributes to an open and honest debate about 9/11 conspiracies &#8211; I think we do need to have some discussion about it.  Too many in the &#8216;Arab street&#8217; believe exactly what Fisk has described &#8211; and worse (specifically the lies that Jews received a warning from Mossad &#8211; the real culprit &#8211; and none died).  </p>
<p>Avoiding a rehearsal of conspiracy theories, the discussion needs to be about understanding each others&#8217; sense of grievances and accepting facts as they are available.</p>
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		<title>By: Quixote</title>
		<link>http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1251</link>
		<dc:creator>Quixote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 05:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1251</guid>
		<description>Thanks, that makes sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, that makes sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1247</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 13:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1247</guid>
		<description>Phil,

I hadn’t thought about it until you mentioned it. However, my blogmate (if that’s the right term) took the liberty and contacted them on my behalf. We’ll see if anything transpires.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil,</p>
<p>I hadn’t thought about it until you mentioned it. However, my blogmate (if that’s the right term) took the liberty and contacted them on my behalf. We’ll see if anything transpires.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1246</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 09:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1246</guid>
		<description>Have you tried getting the Indy to print this?
I guess it would be too embarrassing for Robert.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you tried getting the Indy to print this?<br />
I guess it would be too embarrassing for Robert.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1243</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 00:26:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentysixh.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/fisking-fisk/#comment-1243</guid>
		<description>Quixote:

Well, I’m trying to make two separate points there. Firstly, I’m comparing Fisk’s lower figure of 8.1 seconds (a roof to ground time) with the free-fall in a vacuum figure of 9.22 seconds (also a roof to ground time). Secondly, I’m pointing out that what he states are total collapse times are actually (falsified versions of) the times in which NIST say it took for the first panels to hit the ground. (However, you’re quite right that the NIST timings would refer to the shorter distances of from the &lt;em&gt;crash-sites&lt;/em&gt; to the ground rather than from the &lt;em&gt;roofs&lt;/em&gt; to the ground; I could indeed have been clearer!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quixote:</p>
<p>Well, I’m trying to make two separate points there. Firstly, I’m comparing Fisk’s lower figure of 8.1 seconds (a roof to ground time) with the free-fall in a vacuum figure of 9.22 seconds (also a roof to ground time). Secondly, I’m pointing out that what he states are total collapse times are actually (falsified versions of) the times in which NIST say it took for the first panels to hit the ground. (However, you’re quite right that the NIST timings would refer to the shorter distances of from the <em>crash-sites</em> to the ground rather than from the <em>roofs</em> to the ground; I could indeed have been clearer!)</p>
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